Hey, Jo D   I just want you to know that I admire and respect the heck out of you and anyone else willing to put it all on the line in order to participate in a public exchange of ideas.  It takes a lot of bravery to put one’s self before the public and everyone in the VFC (Vocal Few Club) deserves credit for being willing to put themselves out there. 

I would really love it if someone here with legal knowledge could comment on the Constitutional issue here. Were any laws broken with the distribution of literature by the KKK?

I think the facts speak for themselves Jo. You haven’t provided any evidence to support your contention, and you’re mad at me for calling you on it so you call me names.  OK. I hope that makes you feel better. 

I agree that further discussion between us on this subject is fruitless since I insist on actual evidence rather than relying on your opinion, but I hope others have gained something useful from this public conversation. 

Cheers!

In the immortal words of Neil Simon ” I have tried to be friendly I have tried to be cordial I don’t know what it is you are trying to be”
I have offered to discuss this with you over coffee, but you seem intent that you are right . As you always are. and I frankly cannot and will not devote anymore time online to this . I have stated my case repeatedly although you can’t seem to understand it . And you wnat to contend that the KKK is welcome to say what they want to say,although even they know that is not true. So I quit. I quit you . You are a hopeless man who gets his information and dialogue from google. And you refuse to listen while claiming to be open minded. Yu are the worst type of hypocrite you are so open minded that you have closed your mind to anything else.

Jo, I’m really not trying to ‘put you down’ by pointing out one more time, that you have not answered with a direct yes/no to the question of whether the distributors of KKK literature, or the organization itself, broke the law by distributing their pamphlets in Goochland.  I also do not mean to ‘put you down’ by pointing out that once again you have provided no evidence to back up your claim that the KKK is prohibited from doing so. Again, all my research indicates that they do in fact have the right to distribute their literature as long as it meets certain criteria, primarily having to do with whether such material presents a clear and present danger to others.

Unfortunately the evidence you cite, “The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act (1994)” has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion - as that is English/UK law, not American law. I haven’t read the entire legislation and it does appear that the English seek to limit the distribution of racist literature that promotes hatred of specific groups.  It doesn’t matter - it’s not US law (and I would not support such a law). Please show me some US law to back up your claim if you believe the KKK actions were illegal.  If someone’s claim to be offended by speech were all it took to overrule the First Amendment, we would all be reduced to silence. Thankfully the Constitution does not recognize a ‘right not to be offended.’

Secondly, you still seem to labor under some misconception about what our soldiers pledge when they join the Armed Forces.  I was there at my son’s induction ceremony and these are the words he spoke:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

The words specifically say that he will “defend the Constitution,” so I’m not sure I understand your argument that he pledged to defend the “laws and regulations set forth by the U.S. Government.”  Those are not the words in the pledge. 

There must be some people with a legal background monitoring this discussion who can simply and authoritatively answer the question of whether or not it was legal for the KKK to distribute their literature in Goochland. I spent some more time researching this issue, and simply cannot find anything to support your claim that it was illegal.  If you’re right - I want to see the evidence because I would disagree with any law that attempts to legislate what people can think.

I will say one more time that I do not support the KKK, but I absolutely support their right to distribute their literature as long as it meets the required standards that such literature not create a clear and present danger to others.  You may not like it, but that doesn’t change the fact that as US citizens their freedom of speech appears to support their right to distribute their literature.  Prove me wrong using US law, please.

Pat,
Let’s try this one more time because I am determined to have you hear what I am saying not what you want to hear.
1st Ammmendment I have spent years defending the 1st ammendmnet which is being ripped out from under us everyday. However, many people believe that the 1st Ammendment is just a blank check and you can say what ever you want . Not True. Additionally. certain groups and organizations are not governed by the 1st Ammendment as tehy have lost that priviledge and no organiztion can incite hate or hate crimes under the umbrella of the 1st Ammendment.All through this conversation I have said the same thing the laws which you say govern the KKK’s rights to say what they want to say do not apply. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act (1994) put an end to that .
Your son defends the laws and regulations set forth by the U.S. Government . Which is not the same thing as saying he defends the rights of the Constitution . He defends the right to bear Arms ,yes but not the right to have a machine gun,right? Because the law prohibits the use of machine guns for personal use. Same thing. He follows the laws that govern our country . I am not infringing on the rights to free speech . I started this by explaining that I have spent 20 odd years of my life attempting to prevent further reduction in these rights. However, personally, I feel that the laws governing such organizations are for our own protection I feel that we should be able to turn it off. Throw them away . Ask them to move on. The laws were set there as because Citizen A may be afraid to say “no” I don’t want that information. Because such organizations might invoke fear to Citizen A.
There I have said it again . I hope it goes in this time .
I will be happy to met with you for coffee at White Hawk to discuss this further this afternoon.I will be ther at luch time.  But I cannot take this dance of two steps forward one step back with you anymore.

Dear Jo D, I’m sorry you are so upset.  That was not my intention.  I thought we were having an interesting conversation about important issues in our society. It didn’t mean for it to get personal. I’ve had difficulty understanding what it is that we supposedly disagree about.  I think perhaps there are two open issues or questions here:

1) Were any laws broken when the KKK handed out flyers in Goochland? Yes or No?  I don’t think so; my research indicates that no law was broken, and you have not provided any references to support your contention that laws were broken.  If they were not allowed to distribute flyers, why didn’t someone press charges?

2) I gather that you believe certain organizations such as the KKK should not be permitted to distribute their flyers, even if they are currently authorized to do so by the first amendment, but I believe that will require a change to the Bill of Rights. Once you start infringing on the free speech rights of one group, where do you stop?  You’ve done a good job of trying again and again to make it sound like I support the KKK, which is ludicrous.  I do support their right to free speech within the bounds of the law. Once we start limiting who gets free speech and who doesn’t, it’s all over.  Lobby your Congressman to change the Bill of Rights if you disagree; I’ll be on the other side of that issue.  As it stands today, I’m pretty confident that the action in question was legal and should continue to be so.

I don’t get the ‘changing my tune with you since you are a Christian’ bit.  I started off pointing out that I think the core problem from which organizations like the KKK derive is based on the Judeo code.  I don’t get your point and I don’t understand what I’ve said that would make me guilty of bigotry. I don’t like the Judeo code; it’s based on mythological events that never happened like the Exodus.  I don’t think that makes me a bigot, but I’m used to being called names when people figure that’s easier than answering the difficult questions.

My son does fight to protect the Constitution of the US, and until someone shows me otherwise, it is my understanding that distributing flyers by the KKK would be supported by the first amendment. I’m most interested in knowing if this is somehow incorrect.  You don’t have to like the first amendment, but it’s there Jo, and you haven’t provided anything that tells me the KKK is not legally entitled to distribute their flyers unless they include some imminent threat. 

What people have I torn down? If you look carefully at my old posts, you’ll see that I supported the release of the Administration’s information to the public, on the occasions when they provided it, and I was not happy about some of the personal attacks against the Superintendent.  I criticized the SB for their lack of communication with the public.  I supported my district member because he impressed me with his interest and involvement with the kids, but you may remember that I wasn’t very happy that they refused to address the attacks from you and others by giving the public both sides of the story. They wrote their own epitaph by curling into a ball and failing to communicate well. I don’t question their commitment and desire to serve their county - only the way they went about it.  And it seems the “communications” message was received.  Look at the advances. I’ve watched 3 SB meetings on my PC. Fantastic.  Just what I wanted. I think the old SB could have done the same thing if they had tried.

Since it seems you are mad at me personally for disagreeing with you and for requesting corroborating references for your statements, I would be happy to meet in person for lunch or something to see if we might find a middle ground and get to know each other better. I’m in the phone book. I think we did a good job of laying out the issue and I’ll bet lots of people have enjoyed our discussion and given the topic some thought.  That means’ we’ve done a good thing.

Mr. Gannon ,
I don’t legislate anything. I am not a member of the Congress. I am simply stating that you said the KKK has Free Speech so let them hand out their brochures. I said they don’t have Free Speech unconditionally and I am right.
You want to know my personal opinion it is this . They are fearful and ignorant and looking for a scapegoat for all of the problems in their lives.
I stated and will state again that any crime commited as a result of their writen word or assembly holds all parties accountable.
And as for Decades ago ...James Byrd JR. 1998 not decades.
You want to sit across from someone and debate know your facts not your google searches. The atrocities put forth by the KKK far exceed anything seen in this country (shy of 9/11) and do I personally think they should be allowed to distribute their bile in this county .? NO! Emphatically ,NO! Because every week we see children being bullied and fighting for no cause . Every week we see people cut off in doorways and picked on at work and do I think we need another reason for fighting? No. I think that this county owes it to its citizens to ask them to move on . No more.
Now you want to change your tune with me because you know I am Christian then you sir are guilty of bigotry as well. 
So you see ,sir, you have accomplished your goal and you have made me mad. You want your to say your son fights for the rights of the KKK in the army . I ask to see those rules of engagement. You want to stand on the other side of every table and then say what an amzing job this county did in electing new boards. Shall we pull your previous posts defending both of the old boards?
It seems to me sir that you can’t have it both ways you are either part of the problem or the solution. You can’t just take a stand so you can google your name one more time and see it post . What do you believe? Right or wrong . Stop trying to tear down the people who have dedicated their time and energy to helping this county grow and then attempt to take credit for it .
GOOD DAY SIR

Jo D, So, you feel that the KKK or the member, who passed out the pamphlets was breaking the law?  I don’t recall anyone suggesting that they had committed an illegal act, but if I understand you correctly you are saying that they broke the law and you’re upset that the Sheriff didn’t have them arrested.  Is that it? 

As mentioned before, I’m not a legal expert by any stretch of the imagination, and if this is local, state or federal law, I wonder if you could provide a link for me to confirm it.  If you are correct and they broke the law by handing out pamphlets which did not promote an immediate threat, then I think that law needs to be revisited. The people handing out the pamphlets are no more connected to the hangings and cross-burning’s of decades ago, than are Christians whose predecessors burned people at the stake or abducted native Americans and forced them into Christian reeducation schools. It would be repugnant to take away anyone’s right to free speech, regardless of what they might have to say (within guidelines such as clear and present danger, yada, yada, yada). 

If you’re correct about this law, how does this work?  Does the guy handing out the pamphlets get charged, and with what, or does the organization get charged? What if the person handing out the pamphlets was hired?  What if it was a minor? 

Or are we talking about a law that you think we should have? I’m still unclear. You keep insinuating that handing out this pamphlet was against the law, but I haven’t seen anything to to back that up.  In fact everything I read tells me that you are incorrect:

http://www.adl.org/20faq/20q.html

We both agree that we should try to reduce hate and racism in this country, but it seems to me you want to try and legislate what people think and say.  Where does that begin and end?  When you start to deny speech to one group, how long before it’s another one?  Who gets to decide?  You?  How long before you’d take away my right to post here? 

Most important of all - where does the hate and racism come from in the first place?  What are the root causes of the divisiveness in this country and how do we address that?  Right there in great big letters on the KKK home web page it says:  “America, Our Nation is Under Judgement from God!” 

I ask again, what is the root cause of the hate?

“The KKK issue is an interesting one. On the one hand, Mr. Hauser is correct that we are supposed to have free speech in this country and the KKK is within their rights to distribute their literature.”
“We shouldn’t infringe on individual rights”
You see Mr. Gannon Here is where you and I disagree. You assert that they have these rights to spout hatred and distrust . I assert they don’t. Not because I revoked them but because they are revoked by the government because of their own actions.
I do believe we owe it to ourselves to our children and to our society to maintain the laws put in place to protect society from this hate. And if I can’t yell fire in a theatre then neither can someone blast racism across our county.
I am Christian ,Mr. Gannon, and proud to try and live by the example Christ set forth for me. Not by passing judgement but by trying to overturn the moneymakers in the temple (so to speak). Being spiritual or religious doesn’t mean you judge ;it means you seek the guidance. Our nation was founded by men who felt the same way I feel and they were Christians invested the Masonic tradition of living life accountable to ourselves and our fellow men.Does that mean that they were wrong to question injustice?

Jo D, it occurs to me that I did not respond to one of your assertions, and since you are correct, I can explain. You said, “You sit at the opposite end of the table of every debate.”  I don’t think that’s always true, I suspect that at least a couple folks sit at the same end of the table as I do from time to time.  But your point is well taken.  I do tend to look at the “common wisdom” and question it.  Once I started questioning it, I found it was usually unreliable.  Sometimes I don’t have fully informed opinions and the more discussion I hear, the more I learn, the easier it is to form an opinion.  I don’t mind in the least playing devil’s advocate to hear more sides of the story. 

As to the ““big mouths”” comment.  You put quotes around that.  Did I actually say that?  Can you point me to it?  I generally use the term “vocal few” and if I used the term “big mouth” I apologize.  As a matter of fact, I decided to join your party.  I am now a card carrying member of the Vocal Few Club with all rights and privileges pertaining thereto.  If I can spark a conversation that will get a good exchange of ideas and understanding of other sides of the story, then look for me to do so. My VFC ‘welcome packet’ didn’t include rules and regulations aside from civility and fairness; and if I screw up, call me on it. To the people who just watch these discussions - stick your toe in the water from time to time. 

This community just did an amazing thing.  What other amazing things can we as a community, a nation, and a world do if we just talk to each other and stop pussyfooting around the bigger, deeper questions that haunt us all?  We aren’t teenagers any more.  It’s time to grow up and put the fears of childhood behind us and venture forth into the unknown with more calmness and united sense of purpose.  But we have to start by understanding why we don’t have those things now.